Curse

Innocent · Aug 03, 2006, 11:08 PM // 23:08

My guild had/is having a huge debate regarding splits. As you've probably noticed that I've already posted questions regarding other basic GvG concepts.

I wanted to ask, what is the point of the split?
What are the goals of a split?

Because as we're discussing, there seems to be different opinons. More sepcifically, we're discussing whether a 6/2 or a 5/3 would be better, where odd one is the monk. Now, I understand that it is situational is most cases, and I think there woudln't be much dispute there. But basically we were thinking 2 at their base, and 6 on the flag. Basically, I was saying that for our guild, it would be more benificial for the "defensive" split (6 people) to have the monk, because it allows us to be more flexible at the stand. A guildmate of mine was certain that it would be better for the monk to go with the offensive.

My argument is that for us to have a more flexible defensive split would better play to our current level of "player skill". He keep saying it's "a different style of play" but I'm more tempted to argue that it's a higher level of play that is attainable through improved individual and team skill.

Please help, sorry if the thoughts are a bit spradic, as I really don't know what point my guildmate is trying to make.

nethrandr · Aug 03, 2006, 11:43 PM // 23:43

How much offence dictates how much of their team they are going to send back. So if you do a 6/2 split the other team only has to send less players back to defend their guild lord.
If you send more offence to their base they will have to use more players to defend their guild lord which means less pressure at the flag stand for the defensive team. Its sort of like a balance.
Iam not saying that 5/3 is better but both splits excel in different situations.

Wasteland Squidget · Aug 03, 2006, 11:51 PM // 23:51

Both of these can work fine, though if you're going to have a monk in each split I'd advise just splitting 4-4 rather than 5-3. This allows you to put more offense on your offensive team and drop enemy monks that are sent back much quicker.

As for which is better, it's entirely dependent on the enemy's build and the map choice. On the Druid's Isle a 4-4 split can be very effective at threatening both the stand and the enemy base, while on Frozen it's usually better to fight with most of your team and have independent characters move off a lot to gank the enemy flagger or base.

In short, a dedicated split build should be able to fight effectively 4-4, 6-2, and even 8v8 to a degree. Once you've got that you can adapt your strategy based on the weaknesses of the teams you meet, and the maps you play on.

Innocent · Aug 04, 2006, 12:02 AM // 00:02

Thank you for the insight, we are trying to build a dedicated split build, as both me and Neth find that the most fun to play (as I'm sure most of the guild does aswell). We do run Frozen Isle as our home, so that's where I got my idea of the 6/2 split. Like you said, it is very much situational and really dependant on a lot of factors. You mentioned that a split build should be effective at 4/4, 6/2, and 8v8 (somewhat). Are there any other magic combinations? I only ask because we're just starting in GvG this season, and already our rank is well, a shame to look at. I know, however, that our team does not mind. We're in this to learn how to gvg, and I would love to learn more about GvG in general. Which is why I've posted my other topic, and I'm sure you can expect more to come from me.

Once again, thank you for your insight, it really helps when we have people to help us along the way.

Zui · Aug 04, 2006, 01:55 AM // 01:55

Since you're trying to make a split build, I'll link you to one that's been posted here awhile back by Greedy Gus: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s....php?t=3070698

I agree with Squidget that being able to go 4/4, and 6/2, in addition to being able to go 8 vs 8 to a degree is very important when designing a split build. Since how you split is very dependant on the map, and the team you're facing.

If you're set on running a split build, I'd suggest you use Team Arenas and Guild Scrimmage to test out different splits. Knowing your splits strengths and weaknesses can be a big plus when it comes time to GvG.

As for your Guilds rank, don't worry about it. As long as you're learning and having fun, your rank is unimportant.

P.S. You might want to observe War Machine if you can. They usualy run a split-oriented build, so watching them might be a good place to pick up build ideas, or just watch some tactics that they use.

fiery · Aug 04, 2006, 01:58 AM // 01:58

8/1+guild thief , Great if you can manage that in a situation when your losing or winning. Killing off henchies in stealth wins a VOD.

Wasteland Squidget · Aug 04, 2006, 04:40 AM // 04:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by fiery

8/1+guild thief , Great if you can manage that in a situation when your losing or winning. Killing off henchies in stealth wins a VOD.

I assume you mean 7/1, or you must have some pretty awesome hax to bring 9 players into GvG.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Innocent

to play (as I'm sure most of the guild does aswell). We do run Frozen Isle as our home, so that's where I got my idea of the 6/2 split. Like you said, it is very much situational and really dependant on a lot of factors. You mentioned that a split build should be effective at 4/4, 6/2, and 8v8 (somewhat). Are there any other magic combinations? I only ask because we're just starting in GvG this season, and already our rank is well, a shame to look at. I know, however, that our team does not mind. We're in this to learn how to gvg, and I would love to learn more about GvG in general. Which is why I've posted my other topic, and I'm sure you can expect more to come from me.

It's not so much about magic combinations as it is about building characters who function well independently and in small groups. Playing a split build in practice, you'll find that with all that map mobility your team needs to be really versatile and every grouping needs to be able to function. You don't want to be in a situation where one team isn't able to present a threat because they have the 'wrong' character with them.

Basically, you need to build each member of your team to be capable without the rest of your team to back him up. Giving your warriors Heal Sigs allows them to go off and present a threat to the enemy base alone. A Cripshot Ranger with Distortion is a great character to slow down the enemy flagger. Snares and speed buffs. Maybe your sword warrior can fit Expel Hexes, which would allow him to solo water eles, or Charge to give your party greater mobility around the map.

Likewise, build your characters so that there are synergies between them. If you run a Flashbot or Water Ele, give them a Draw Conditions so you can split them off with a warrior or ranger and kill Flashbots or Cripshot Rangers that are sent back to harrass you.

Figure out what style of split appeals to you. Maybe you like splitting up their monks and taking them out with two roughly equal squads. Maybe you prefer keeping their monks at the stand and just sending guys off to harrass their base and flagger.

Try to avoid characters which require the whole party's presence to function really effectively. Tainted Necros are a good example of this - they're nice pressure on the enemy team, but really aren't all that effective unless their disease has a chance to hit a lot of people. They don't fit that well into a split build as a result.

Once you've built your characters to be versatile and capable of a variety of different tactics, you're in a much better position to outplay the other team.

Thom · Aug 04, 2006, 04:54 AM // 04:54

There are two types of splitting strategies: a rigid goal oriented split and a flexible split. Your rigid split will have a well defined split organization and will rely on forcing a certain situation to gain an advantage. A flexible split has several possible split possiblities and tries to find a resonable split which can respond to the opponent. While most teams split to some extent, a flexible split team has several characters able to move quickly and work without monks support.

If you have a team with enough experience and flexiblity, there are many ways to use various splits to control the game. Most of the time against good team you are trying to force errors through superior movement and gain an NPC advantage. If you manage a key morale boost or route, need to maintain those small advantages and build on them. As with any build, you want to force the opponent to play on your terms where they are uncomfortable and more likely to make mistakes.

Innocent · Aug 04, 2006, 07:33 AM // 07:33

@ Wasteland

"Figure out what style of split appeals to you. Maybe you like splitting up their monks and taking them out with two roughly equal squads. Maybe you prefer keeping their monks at the stand and just sending guys off to harrass their base and flagger."

This was very insightful, and I think that I might prefer to have the harrass parties, while my guildmate would like the more 4/4-ish kind of face-offs. I realize though like many people have said, it is best for our split build to be able to split in many differnt ways, with empahsis on 6/2, 4/4, and 8.

@ Thom
That's what I've always percieved splitting as doing. The goal of a split is to make them play our game, thereby forcing mistakes. We've played several groups where we've split with great success, and have taken them down that way, through our split tatics. And I have to say, that is one aspect of GvG that I love, and will never get tired of.

JR · Aug 04, 2006, 07:58 AM // 07:58

I used to be under the impression that you had to build with the ability to do a set split, either 4/4 or 5/3 etc. I soon came to realise that splitting effectively really has nothing to do with having a pre-set split, it is simply about having enough versatile characters that you can react to anything.

If the other team sends two guys towards the back of your base, suddenly that defined 4/4 split is useless. You need to pick out a suitable counter force and react quickly, which can also give you the ability to powerplay the other team. If you have one or two very strong solo characters that can handle a split of two or three of theirs, this gives you a numerical advantage with the main party if they split or if you chose to split first.

Having such characters built in can make you a bit weaker 8 vs 8, for example a Cripshot doesn't really contribute to a spike, doesn't have the degen of an Illusion spammer, and doesn't have the additional utility of a Water Ele. None of that matters though, because when it comes to splitting a Cripshot dominates.

Really it is down to you, and your play style. Do you prefer to roll teams hard at the flagstand, but maybe flounder a bit if they split? Or do you prefer entering (sometimes long) matches of more strategical play?

fatboyslimerr · Aug 04, 2006, 10:10 AM // 10:10

Adding to what JR- said about crip shot rangers. I love these babies but when it comes to 8 vs 8 at the flag stand their only use really is to spread poison and try to interrupt things like diversion, blinding flash etc. Not very helpful if your trying to spike.

What I like doing is having the crip shot ranger running the flag while we have 2 E/Mos (one has windborne speed) at the flag stand to spike with. Then when a split comes about the WB Air spiker becomes the flag runner and the crip shot ranger goes off with a warrior and perhaps the other air spiker.

This is a perfect example of making a build with a lot of flexibility. Another tip for you. You should have 2 people in your team which, when a split comes about, should always be in different teams, e.g. one warrior and one of the support players or even a monk. These 2 players then are your 'captains' and they're job is to communicate to each other how the split is going, should another player join them or leave them and can they obtain the morale boost without reinforcements.

Of course this is obvious and you probably would have worked this out after playing for awhile but its a great idea.

Playing a standard balanced, 2 warrior, 2 E/Mos, 1 Mesmer, 2 Monks 1 Ranger, allows you the choice of how many people your going to split with. The most obvious is for the 2 warriors to go off and gank doing a 2/6 split. The next is the 2 warriors and one of the Air spikers doing a 3/5 or 2 warriors and the ranger. The finally one of the monks joins that team to make the 4/4 (but most of the time sending the other warrior back for pressure at the flag stand while the ranger comes help the offensive team is a good plan).

Hope this helps

Innocent · Aug 04, 2006, 04:55 PM // 16:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatboyslimerr

Adding to what JR- said about crip shot rangers. I love these babies but when it comes to 8 vs 8 at the flag stand their only use really is to spread poison and try to interrupt things like diversion, blinding flash etc. Not very helpful if your trying to spike.

What I like doing is having the crip shot ranger running the flag while we have 2 E/Mos (one has windborne speed) at the flag stand to spike with. Then when a split comes about the WB Air spiker becomes the flag runner and the crip shot ranger goes off with a warrior and perhaps the other air spiker.

This is a perfect example of making a build with a lot of flexibility. Another tip for you. You should have 2 people in your team which, when a split comes about, should always be in different teams, e.g. one warrior and one of the support players or even a monk. These 2 players then are your 'captains' and they're job is to communicate to each other how the split is going, should another player join them or leave them and can they obtain the morale boost without reinforcements.

Of course this is obvious and you probably would have worked this out after playing for awhile but its a great idea.

Playing a standard balanced, 2 warrior, 2 E/Mos, 1 Mesmer, 2 Monks 1 Ranger, allows you the choice of how many people your going to split with. The most obvious is for the 2 warriors to go off and gank doing a 2/6 split. The next is the 2 warriors and one of the Air spikers doing a 3/5 or 2 warriors and the ranger. The finally one of the monks joins that team to make the 4/4 (but most of the time sending the other warrior back for pressure at the flag stand while the ranger comes help the offensive team is a good plan).

Hope this helps

Yea, it does. We're actually running a build similar to the one you listed, we have two eles, 2 mesmers, and no ranger though. Perhaps we will look into that and make ourselves a split build, and of course, post it on here for critque.

Wasteland Squidget · Aug 04, 2006, 08:29 PM // 20:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatboyslimerr

Adding to what JR- said about crip shot rangers. I love these babies but when it comes to 8 vs 8 at the flag stand their only use really is to spread poison and try to interrupt things like diversion, blinding flash etc. Not very helpful if your trying to spike.

Not to sway too far off topic, but I would disagree with this. If you have other degen on your team (like Taints or an illusion mesmer) Cripshots can create a lot of 'virtual' degen at the stand by continually interrupting a Heal Party. Cripshot Rangers with Distortion can go almost anywhere they want without being a spike risk (depending on the opponent's build), which means they can interrupt even a guy in the backline spamming Heal Party.

It doesn't sound like interrupting one skill would have so big an effect, but degen gets about three times as good if you can take the enemy's Heal Party out of the equation.

Greedy Gus · Aug 04, 2006, 11:32 PM // 23:32

I think most balanced builds should be able to at least decently split 4/4, 5/3, 6/2, and 7/1.

However, if you're specifically designing a split build ('rigid' as thom puts it), then you should design it in such a way that gives the enemy team the most trouble adapting to what you're doing. A few months ago, I was advocating 6/2 split with a decent amount of physical damage on both sides to put the enemy in a difficult situation (posted my build here as Zui linked).

Right now though, I'm of the opinion that people are used to 6/2 splitting enough that it's not really going to trick them as much anymore. 2-man infiltration teams are much more common, especially with the introduction of assassins.

I'm advocating 5/3 split builds now, and after running a few different variations in the past week, I'd say I'm spot-on that enemies do not respond very well to them (whether build related or just they're not used to that type of split). The problem people run into is that with 2 monks, if they send one back against the team of 3, their 1 monk at the stand can't hold up against the enemy team of 5 (imagine 5v5 team arena with only one monk). And if they keep their monks at the stand, people tend to not have a 3-man squad that can compete against our team of 3 that was designed to function as best as possible in 3v3 situations.

Wasteland Squidget · Aug 05, 2006, 12:29 AM // 00:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

I'm advocating 5/3 split builds now, and after running a few different variations in the past week, I'd say I'm spot-on that enemies do not respond very well to them (whether build related or just they're not used to that type of split). The problem people run into is that with 2 monks, if they send one back against the team of 3, their 1 monk at the stand can't hold up against the enemy team of 5 (imagine 5v5 team arena with only one monk). And if they keep their monks at the stand, people tend to not have a 3-man squad that can compete against our team of 3 that was designed to function as best as possible in 3v3 situations.

I would agree that a lot of teams aren't well-prepared for this.

One 3-man split we've been using at times is an AoE smiter, an axe warrior, and a water ele. I feel that AoE smiters tend to get overlooked by split teams, but they're really one of the best characters for a 3-man split. The ability to command even a small amount of healing in an arena that exists largely without monks is extremely powerful. They can also contribute very nicely to a warrior's DPS for NPC-slaying, and handle removal for a lot of the conditions and hexes that inevitably get thrown. They're also very strong characters in 8v8, so if you're forced to give up your split you haven't given up an effective character. A Cripshot ranger in place of the water ele would probably work in this split as well.

The problem with this kind of split is that you're giving up 3 guys to gank the enemy base, and probably have to have another one running the flag. With only 4 at the stand, a competent offense will roll over you very quickly unless you can present a threat in the base very quickly. You need to force them to send people back so fast that they can't spare 30 seconds to annihilate your flagstand team. On some maps this is a risky proposition.

Greedy Gus · Aug 05, 2006, 12:36 AM // 00:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

The problem with this kind of split is that you're giving up 3 guys to gank the enemy base, and probably have to have another one running the flag. With only 4 at the stand, a competent offense will roll over you very quickly unless you can present a threat in the base very quickly. You need to force them to send people back so fast that they can't spare 30 seconds to annihilate your flagstand team. On some maps this is a risky proposition.

I find that you just need a non-retarded flagstand team that falls back and doesn't even engage if the enemy is pushing hard with superior numbers looking to roll you. If you have no flagstand NPCs, this can mean running as far back as all the way into your lord area; it depends on how far the enemy is willing to push. This is actually even to be desired: it puts a whole lot of distance between the two splits and we've already determined that they didn't send enough people back. They may force morale, but that's an extreme where they're giving up their base NPCs. Depending on your infiltrators, they can often even end a match by killing a lord if the enemy doesn't respect the split.

But yes I agree, you need to pack a lot of fast offense into your infiltration squad, and one of my main points I harped on was that they need to be seen as a serious threat.

DeathandtheHealing · Aug 05, 2006, 06:12 AM // 06:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Innocent

My guild had/is having a huge debate regarding splits. As you've probably noticed that I've already posted questions regarding other basic GvG concepts.

I wanted to ask, what is the point of the split?
What are the goals of a split?

Because as we're discussing, there seems to be different opinons. More sepcifically, we're discussing whether a 6/2 or a 5/3 would be better, where odd one is the monk. Now, I understand that it is situational is most cases, and I think there woudln't be much dispute there. But basically we were thinking 2 at their base, and 6 on the flag. Basically, I was saying that for our guild, it would be more benificial for the "defensive" split (6 people) to have the monk, because it allows us to be more flexible at the stand. A guildmate of mine was certain that it would be better for the monk to go with the offensive.

My argument is that for us to have a more flexible defensive split would better play to our current level of "player skill". He keep saying it's "a different style of play" but I'm more tempted to argue that it's a higher level of play that is attainable through improved individual and team skill.

Please help, sorry if the thoughts are a bit spradic, as I really don't know what point my guildmate is trying to make.

First you should identify which build your oppent is running, theres always a lot of strengths and weakness to various builds, and once you start to gvg more you really notice it quick.
Certain build you'll make some tactical calls to spilt right away on.... for example ranger spike. If you force them to spilt up you put a huge impact in there spiking abilty, and if they dont spilt well then there just letting there body guards get ganked.
Identify the build-->call the tactics-->act
~Kate

Stupid Shizno · Aug 05, 2006, 06:25 AM // 06:25

A 7/1 can be done aslong as your 1 can put enough conditions/hex on the npc to kill them off. i know a lot of guilds do a 7/1 with the 1 being a npc killer and backup flag runner

fatboyslimerr · Aug 05, 2006, 11:24 AM // 11:24

If its a 3/5 split you want, without sending any of your monks along I would recommend this set up.

1 Axe Shocker with Healing Signet to keep himself alive as well as sprint or rush in order to run away from pursuers as well as return to the flag stand quickly.
1 Air Spiker with Heal Party, Draw Condition and possibly heal other (and possibly windborne speed to increase mobility)
1 Crippling Shot Ranger with Troll Unguent as well as Dodge or Zojan's Haste for the same reason as the warrior.

With this 3some, you should be able to do decent damage with the warrior, blind enemy warriors as well as spike with the air e/mo who also heals and removes blind and finally decrease enemy's mobility as well as interrupt heals and spread poison with the ranger.

This split works a treat on warriors isle, taking the path to the enemy's 'back door' with the guild thief. The increased mobility from the run buffs as well as healing provided by the E/Mo should help against most teams sent to repel you. However if the enemy does send a monk with them, you gain an advantage at the flag which should obviously be exploited and so this offense teams job is like a diversion while you wipe out foes at the flag stand to gain a morale boost while they are gaining DP.

People on this forum are an endless well of knowledge and information so if you struggle or want help try to be specific in your further questions

Patrograd · Aug 06, 2006, 11:39 AM // 11:39

It has always seemed to me that one of the hardest splits to counter is 6/2, with a warrior and cripshot ranger going off on a base gank. Very difficult to react to that properly with most standard builds